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Mark Beckwith (00:02)
Welcome to Reconciliation Roundtable. I’m Mark Beckwith, retired bishop of the Diocese of Newark and the Episcopal Church, author of Seeing the Unseen Beyond Paradigms, Prejudices, and Party Minds. And I convene religious leaders to talk about their faith and how they see their faith interacting and intersecting with the challenges and opportunities that we face in our world. And today with me is the Reverend Dr. Mark.

Who is the executive director of the Denison Forum, which is a ministry that has a commitment to and a passion for equipping believers to navigate today’s complex culture with biblical truth.

The Denison Forum is an extensive online ministry. It produces the daily article, a daily email providing biblical perspective on current events. Mark hosts the Faith and Clarity podcast, which is part of the Denison Forum. I was a guest of Mark a couple of months ago. He is the co-author of Sacred Spirituality, Reclaiming God’s Design, and the co-author of Who Am I? What the Bible says.

It is about identity and why it matters.

A native Texan, Mark is a graduate of Howard Payne University in Texas and got his Masters of Divinity at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. He’s an ordained minister in the Southern Baptist tradition. Before joining the Denison Forum, Mark was a pastor for 35 years and is currently a pastor of Possum Kingdom Chapel, an in-person congregation of Denison Ministries. And he also has

A

Doctor of Ministry degree from Baylor University. Welcome, Mark. It’s great to have you and to get these two marks together to talk about our respective spiritual and political journeys. my opening question to you: you serve as a pastor of congregation for congregations for 35 years.

What called you to become part of Denison Ministries and Denison Forum, which I sense is a bit different than being a senior pastor of a congregation?

Mark Turman (02:30)
Well,

yeah, thank you for that. And thank you for the opportunity to be on the podcast with you. enjoying getting to know you, Mark, and to get to know more about Braver Faith and the work that can be done, needs to be done in our country. just this past Sunday, I got to share a little bit from God’s Word with a church. and we talked about building a more perfect union. just how do we help our country come together around.

things that matter and around things that we all need. And so that’s kind of the foundation of what we do. but the history of how I got into this current role, number one is is I’ve known our founder, Dr. Jim Dennison, for about 40 years. we met in our seminary days and I was doing master’s work. He was doing PhD work. And so we’ve known each other for a long time. We’ve pastored in the same seasons and have kept up with each other.

And I became a fan of his work, particularly in the Denison Forum when the ministry started in 2009 and became very intrigued and engaged with how he would take the issues, the events, the trends going on in our culture, and would talk about them from a biblical perspective as a way of equipping believers to really live out what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount about being salt and light.

in whatever context and situation that we might find ourselves in. And Dr. Dennison is an expert explainer and can take complex subjects and put them into very simple terms and into actionable items to where we can live them out. And so that was compelling to me. it became a resource that I encouraged our church to be a part of.

And that helped not only me, but our leaders as well as our members to become equipped. And so when the opportunity came to be a part of his team, it was already something I was very familiar with, very confident in. It is something that it that was already making a difference in my life and in the lives of people that I was pastoring. And to be able to come along and accelerate that, to be a part of that, just resonated with me deeply. it’s it is different.

From being the the head pastor of a local church, but at the same time it’s very similar as well, with the goal being to make disciples who live in love like Jesus does, and who can live out his his goodness and his gospel in the context that they’re living in. And so that’s very much what the goal of our church was, and very much the the goal of Denison Ministries as well.

Mark Beckwith (05:20)
No, thank you. And one of the purposes of the Denison Forum is to quote navigate today’s complex complex culture with biblical truth. And how would you define express biblical truth?

Mark Turman (05:42)
Yeah,

we start obviously with a commitment to the scripture. we desire everything that we do, whether it’s online, virtual, or in-person. our goal is that it is biblical, that it is relevant and timely to people’s lives. we want it to be accessible. And so, in many ways, you might describe us as a a digital church with both vi virtual, online, and in-person expressions.

but what we do is we start with a very, very high commitment to scripture and to the authority of the Bible as the primary authority for our faith and practice. And so when we’re writing an article, when we’re having a podcast, when we’re doing any kind of presentation, we want to start with what does God say? What does God reveal in the Bible? And how do we come at that from a very foundational level of

you know, who wrote these words, why were they written, who were they written to, and how do the truths that we find in scripture transfer as direct commandments andor prevailing consistent principles that will guide us in our relationship with Christ, our relationship with each other, and our relationship with the world. So we start with that as a foundational premise.

unapologetically committed to the Bible as God’s inspired word, and we let that be the original compass that we follow.

Mark Beckwith (07:22)
one of the founders of atomic physics, Niels Bohr in the last century, he was a Danish physicist, said the opposite of a fact is a lie, but the opposite of a truth is a competing truth. And early on in the church, there were competing truths which

almost sunk the the Council of Nicaea in 325 when some said Jesus is fully divine, others would say Jesus is fully human. Two competing truths. And there are many truths that are realized or embraced differently as people read the scripture. How how do you navigate that? How do you sort through all of that?

Mark Turman (08:12)
Well,

it’s it’s an adventure in walking through the fog sometimes for sure. our ambition, our commitment and our ambition to is to be both nonpartisan and non-sectarian. And so we have a great love and a great respect for all people, of whatever faith, of no faith at all. one of the principles that very dear to us.

Is that we want to speak the truth in love, wherever God gives us the opportunity, to whomever He gives us the opportunity to speak, whether they are a part of the Christian faith, one or other branches of the Christian faith, or other religions, or as I said before, no religion at all. we understand that there are a lot of different understandings of the Bible and of how to walk out the Christian faith.

We appreciate various perspectives and try to have respect for all of them, knowing that we’re not the first ones to deal with these issues. there’s a lot of things that we could talk about that are important. We do believe that there’s a difference between primary doctrines and secondary doctrines. That doesn’t mean that the things that are secondary are unimportant. It just means that they are not the first and primary doctrines, such as.

The identity of who Jesus is, how a person is reconciled to God through faith in the saving work of Christ, those kinds of doctrines. And we understand that for now 2,000 years, if not further, Christians have tried to understand these things and have not always arrived at the same understanding or conclusions.

And so we hold our convictions firmly, but we also hold them with a great deal of respect for where we find ourselves in the long stream of history. And we want to walk into all of these conversations with a great deal of humility. That, hey, this is the way we understand faith, but we want to listen and we want to learn and we want to grow with other people. And we want to hear first where they’re coming from and their understanding of faith.

Mark Beckwith (10:31)
as I mentioned earlier, I’m an Episcopalian and our roots are in England the Anglican tradition which was created five hundred years ago. And if we think life is polarized here in America, go back five hundred years in England where

Mark Turman (10:48)
Yes.

Mark Beckwith (10:48)
it was it was it was life threatening between Catholicism and emerging Protestantism.

And they fought and the two sources of truth. I’m gonna oversimplify it, but Protestantism, as Martin Luther said, is only scripture is the source of truth. And the Catholic tradition, so truth comes from the received tradition as as proposed by by the bishops. And they were at odds with each other and we came along and said, Stop, you’re both right. sources of truth are scripture, tradition, and then we added

Reason. And so it’s this three-legged stool in our tradition. And you mentioned Braver Angels earlier. I co-chair Braver Faith and which is a department of braver angels, which is a movement across America, and Mark, you’re becoming more and more involved in it to try and depolarize America. I refer to Braver Angels as the secular version of the Anglican movement because when you walk into that tension.

into that difference. grace, spirit, hope can emerge a new and life-giving way. So I just wanted to give that little riff on on differences of of interpretation and how we approach it and the level of humility that you describe is is really important.

Sort of related to that, you mentioned the title of your book, God’s Design, Reclaiming God’s Design. What to you is God’s design?

Mark Turman (12:33)
Well,

y you’re referring to the book that I help write on sexuality. and so I believe that the Bible teaches that sex is a gift from God, that it is intended to be between one man and one woman under the covenant, the seal, and the shield of marriage between one man and one woman. we understand, I understand that that’s not the perspective of all Christians, but that is my perspective.

understanding and that is the understanding and the position of Denison Forum as well. we try to talk through that, the implications of that, and and again with great humility, great compassion for others who don’t share that particular perspective. we believe that that’s what God intended in the original teaching about sexuality that begins in the book of Genesis. You see Jesus

reaffirm that in his teaching. And then I believe you see that reflected in the teachings of the early church, reflected particularly in the writings of the Apostle Paul. And we understand that that’s a complex subject. It’s a complex subject when you come to people’s understanding of their sexual identity. It’s a complex subject when it comes to the issue of marriage and divorce and remarriage.

but we believe that that is God’s original ideal, and that that is something we should all continue to hold to and aspire to. the book of Hebrews says you know, let the marriage bed be undefiled. and so while we deal with the realities of broken human beings and a broken world and the reality that we all have various forms of sexual.

brokenness in us, whether we regardless of what our perspective is on sexuality as a whole, I would say that we still need to hold to and pursue God’s original ideal. that should be our starting point.

Mark Beckwith (14:45)
I I I want to honor that that position and also say I don’t hold it in the same way that you do, but want to again

sort of share the fact that we are in this community of people brought together by Jesus. Because I I believe we’re all made in the image of God and it’s been my experience and what I’ve seen is that a large number, substantial number the

documentation sort of varies from one to the other, that there are people who identify who are intrinsically attracted to the same sex and they they want to love others and I think that love needs to be celebrated. I perform marriage marriages for gay and lesbian people. I support that. I as a bishop I supported that. And so I come at that from a very different perspective but want to honor the fact that yours is

different where it becomes a problem, I think, is when either side who holds that and and receives it as biblical witness, and I do without having to go through all the the the biblical citations of it to demonize the other side and there’s a as we know and one of the things that we’re both committed to because this this has been part of our conversations

is to reduce the demonization and to see where we can agree and to how do we how do we honor one another in in our disagreement.

Mark Turman (16:30)
Yeah,

and I and would absolutely agree with the goal being to honor every person. and while we, you know, Mark and I would not we would not come at the reality or the issue of sexuality in the same way and walk up to that, there are some things I think, even underneath the conversation we’re having right now that we do share in common. One is we believe that every human being is of inherent worth and value, that as you said, they are every single person you meet.

is made in the image of God. And as C.S. Lewis said, you’ve never met a mere human being. Every one of them is the dearly loved creation of God, no matter what they believe, what they practice. And so we need to start at that premise is that every human being is worthy of our respect. They’re worthy of our compassion. They’re worthy of our love. They’re worthy of our attention, even if they don’t agree with us about much of anything.

that’s the premise that should be underneath all of this. I do think what we hold as a source of authority matters, obviously, as I think you would. we can talk a lot about the the various related issues to complex sexuality that has been impacted by the reality of of fallen sinful human beings.

But what we want to do is whatever conversation we walk into, whatever convictions we bring into that conversation, needs to start with this foundational respect and value for every human being, the desire to communicate with both clarity and humility, and a fundamental respect for each person’s freedom given to them by God to.

Pursue faith according to the dictates of their own conscience without force or fear. And, you know, that that’s why we we hold so dear this idea not only of humility, but in that humility, speaking the truth as we understand it in love in every possible way. Because as the Bible says, the human being that you’re looking at right now, or that you’re talking to in this moment, or the one you’ll see next.

that’s not your enemy. our our enemies, the Bible says, are spiritual in nature. They are not flesh and blood. They are the forces of evil and of demons that are separate from the individuals that we are called to love and to live life with, and to do that in peaceful and and productive kinds of ways.

Mark Beckwith (19:25)
As you’re saying that I’m remembering a friend of mine was now an Episcopal priest before ordination, he worked at Covenant House in New York City, which was run by the Catholic Church and gathered homeless teenagers and provided wraparound services for them, gave them a safe space. but because it was a Catholic or organization, they couldn’t dispense birth control. And so my friend said, Okay, we can’t do this. What can we do? And you know, sort of worked around

that he he wished that they could dispense birth control but nevertheless that they offered an important service and ministry to literally thousands of runaways who ended up at Covenant House in in lower Manhattan so that was a a a key key piece

Mark Turman (20:18)
And that’s, you

know, that’s been similar to what we’ve experienced here in the town where I live. you know, we have a great many different expressions of faith. I live in a Dallas suburb about 25 miles north of Dallas. and we sometimes relate to ministries in Dallas. I just made a new friend who works with Catholic charities in the North Texas region, and we’re partnering together to do things. And you know, we’ve

We’ve had various experiences and a lot of conversations about, you know, there’s there’s certain things we’re probably not going to be very good at doing together. Worship may not be one of those things that we do really well together because of our different understandings, but we do share a commitment to human flourishing. And we do want every person to have an adequate and appropriate amount of food. We want them to have shelter, we want them to have clothing, we want them to have access to health care.

we want them to have every opportunity for a good job. and so, you know, regardless of what our faith perspectives are, we’re able to come together and say every human being deserves some of these fundamental things. And we ought to do all we can in the name of Jesus or perhaps even other motivations, but we ought to we ought to come together and to try to make sure that everybody has at least a reasonable.

respectful and honorable opportunity to flourish even if they have n no faith conviction or they don’t share ours.

Mark Beckwith (21:56)
I have another friend who is a congregational minister, a woman and a lesbian, and she went to Utah to work with gay and lesbian kids. And in the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints, homosexuality is not permitted. but but and this is important, they don’t recognize it within their tradition.

But they’re fierce in honoring the decisions and orientations of people outside their church.

So they’ve been real champions of LGBTQ folks outside the outside the LC LDS church, because they’re so committed to people having their basic rights honored. And they know very, very well and through their tragic history and how they’ve been singled out and bef bilified and

in so many awful ways that they recognize that people outside our tradition need to be honored. So I think that’s the that that’s an example I think that we can

Braver Faith team has people from the LDS Church part of it in and that diversity really adds to the litigancy.

in an interview that you had with Dr. Mike Williams on your Faith and Clarity podcast, you both talked about the first Great Awakening and mentioned George Whitfield, who was born in 1714 and died in 1770. he was English. He originally was an Anglican priest, but then joined with the Wesley brothers and became a Methodist. And he was one of the founding

Preachers of the first great awakening. what would you think would be a great awakening today, given the polarization, the diversity, all the rest of it? What would you think to be the great awakening today?

Mark Turman (24:15)
Yeah,

I I think it would really be two things to me. One of those is what I said before, which is a reclaiming of the image of God and the value of every human being. that as you said before, Mark, we have turned those that disagree with us not simply they are no longer considered opponents, they are considered enemies. and I think that’s something that we have to turn back from

that that reality in our nation and even in our generation. you know, there’s a famous story that Ronald Reagan said to his friend Tip O’Neill, a a Republican and a Democrat, that, you know, he’s that Reagan said to his administration and to Tip O’Neill, I don’t have any enemies, I only have opponents. And just the difference between those two words is so fundamental to me, so foundational, that

Hey, I’m going to contend for what I understand and for what I believe to be best and right for people and for com communities. but you know what? At the end of the day, I’m committed to not being violent, and I’m committed to loving and and caring for every human being because they are the the beloved creation of God. That’s the first awakening I think that we need to to foundationally turn back to.

And then I obviously I would say that the next thing that needs to be that would constitute an awakening, in my opinion, would be a groundswell of people turning back in open, honest, and humble curiosity toward God. you know, obviously as an evangelical Christian, I would have a particular desire that they would

That they would approach God through the person of Jesus Christ and through the revelation of Jesus Christ that is revealed in the Bible. That would be my preference. But what has to precede that, in my opinion, is a humble, hungry curiosity about the fundamental questions that all human beings usually ask at some point in their life, which is: where did I come from? Why am I here?

Who am I and what is my purpose? Those foundational philosophical questions ultimately lead, in my opinion, to the best way to explore and discover faith. You know, what we like to say at Denison Forum is philosophy is the art of asking the best questions, and theology is the answering of those questions in the best way that we possibly can.

and so that would be the awakening that I would hope for and that we’re praying for. and by some encouragement, at least some of the research that we’re seeing is that that seems to be the desire of at least the emerging generation that we call Gen Z. that they have grown up and are still growing up in a very partisan world, a very tribal environment that is.

Divided not only by politics, but also divided by religion, but they are willing to have the conversation and they are demonstrating in some significant ways a curiosity to understand, a desire to have conversations, even with older generations, about what do you believe and why and how did you come to believe it? And I think that may be an indication that God is stirring the the awakening that we’re talking about right now.

Mark Beckwith (28:04)
The derivative of the word awaken is woke, which we hear over and over again. How would you contrast awakening from woke which is freighted with all sorts of negative images at least on one end and is sort of not understood by many others?

Mark Turman (28:26)
Yeah,

that’s that’s a lightning rod term, in my opinion, that, as you said, has been freighted with so many things. and in the worst expression, has been kind of a code word that I would say for that basically indicates anybody that doesn’t agree with my perspective. if you don’t agree with my perspective, then you must be in this horrendous, dark, nebulous thing called the the woke community.

Okay. I’ve not found anybody that’s been very good at defining the term. and I’ve not been very very helpful or I haven’t been very successful in finding somebody that can actually give a significant definition to it. There might be some people that would say, Well, that’s anybody that doesn’t believe in Jesus, or anybody that doesn’t believe in gay marriage, or that does believe in gay marriage. it it just

It is a term, in my opinion, so nebulous that it lacks any real significance because you cannot, in my opinion, have one or a few words that can describe the complexities of the issues that we’re dealing with, the scale that we’re dealing with, and the reality of trying to get to a peaceful.

harmonious and respectful existence together in our communities. We have always been a diverse nation. We will likely always be a diverse nation. and and you know, my pastor taught me a long time ago that any philosophy of life that will fit in a nutshell should stay there. and I think woke is one of those terms that gets turned around and tossed around

As a way of describing and potentially demonizing the people that disagree with you.

Mark Beckwith (30:25)
And another term that gets freighted with all sorts of charge and and can end up being demonizing is the notion America is a Christian nation. what does that mean to you or does it?

Mark Turman (30:42)
Well,

I think the tr I think the statement can be both true and not true. in one sense, there’s no such thing as a Christian nation because nations can’t be in personal relationship with God. Only individuals can. And so we we we you we misuse the category, in my opinion, by trying to say that we are a Christian nation. Now, can you say from a historical perspective

That most of the founding fathers, if not all of the founding fathers, were operating in a context where their primary orientation toward life was a Judeo-Christian perspective. I think you can say that. And I think there is some legitimacy, real legitimacy, to saying that they worked out of that perspective because they came from Europe with that perspective.

Many of them came because they had differences of interpretation and of practice in their Christian faith. And they came to this country looking for a greater opportunity to practice their faith without being persecuted or criticized for the way that they understood it. But by the time you get the colonies formed, you have a great deal of faith perspective from.

The north all the way to the south. But their commonality was that most of them were operating in a general consensus that emerged out of a Judeo-Christian framework. But that did not mean that they were all evangelical Christians. They were not all Catholics. Catholics were a minority in the beginning. And but but but they

Mark Beckwith (32:32)
Well they were they were the house.

Mark Turman (32:34)
were operating out of that shared general understanding. And so

Their decisions and particularly their shared commitments that ultimately get expressed in the Declaration of Independence and in the Constitution emerge out of that framework. And that is not to say that either of those documents is a quote-unquote Christian document or a biblical document. There were a lot of other influences around.

political science and around philosophy in general, men and people like John Locke and others that had come before, there were a lot of influences, but faith, and particularly Christian faith, was a primary influence in their understanding and thinking. And so, you know, if if if it had been people from from a Hindu perspective or a majority of people coming from

a Muslim perspective, if those had been the first colonists, we would have seen something probably much different or possibly much different. but to say that we were founded from a Judeo Christian orientation, I think is factual. but that does not by definition mean that we are quote unquote a Christian nation. We are a nation with a whole bunch of Christian people.

And a whole bunch more people who have a general Christian orientation, but in many ways don’t practice Christianity in the way that you and I would would understand it. and then we have a whole bunch of people that have all kinds of different kinds of faith,

Mark Beckwith (34:19)
Yeah.

Mark Turman (34:20)
coming from all over the world.

Mark Beckwith (34:22)
Indeed, indeed. I think somebody reported to me a bunch of years ago that there something like five thousand independent Christian groups registered with the IRS in America. So and

Mark Turman (34:37)
I wouldn’t doubt it.

Mark Beckwith (34:38)
and and and let’s say that let us I I would imagine we would agree that they all don’t agree. Jonathan Rouch, who is

writer and commentator and a very big friend of of of braver angels, who identifies himself as a gay Jewish atheist, is a champion of religion and particularly Christianity. And he said he has written that Christian in his book Cross Purposes, that Christianity is the load-bearing wall for democracy. But it means needs to be kept separate.

And that load-bearing wall, when we were created, was made up of a few, a few Protestant denominations. paramount among them were Episcopalians, Anglicans at the time, and Congregationalists, and Baptists and Methodists were sort of sort of mixed in. But now, 250 years later, that load-bearing wall has dozens and dozens of religious expressions.

Christians, many of which are not Christian, and what a great strength that can be if we honor them all.

Mark Turman (35:58)
Yeah, I think that’s in many ways right. you know, I’ve read some of Roush’s work as well. you know, this is an opportunity for me to give a call out to my Baptist forefather, John Leland. It was John

Mark Beckwith (36:09)
Yes.

Mark Turman (36:09)
Leland, you know, a Virginia Baptist, who made it clear that he would not use his influence to support the Constitution until it had a Bill of Rights, the first of which guaranteeing the right to free the right to free speech, the right of the free press, as well as the freedom of religion or what we

Commonly referred to as the establishment clause, that the government would not establish any particular religion as the religion of the country. Baptists have always been known for their passion for religious liberty in America and around the world. We’re working at Denison Forum in some new efforts to give every person the right to believe whatever they.

They feel led to believe without fear and without force, because honest and true faith can never come at the end of a spear or a knife or a gun. It has to be free or it cannot be faith. but I think you’re right, Mark, it is a load-bearing wall. But the other thing we also need to remember is that Christianity did not start, it did not emerge in a democracy. it it emerged in the Roman Empire.

and that was anything but a democracy as we understand it today. I was reading just today the story of the Apostle Paul in the book of Acts, how he is defending his faith. And you know, we we read about how he strategically used his Roman citizenship to allow him the freedom to continue to testify for his faith. and so we

We realize that there was a principle back then, even in the Roman Empire, that Roman citizens were supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. They were supposed to have an opportunity to defend themselves. It didn’t apply to everybody, however. It only applied to Roman citizens. And Paul used that strategically. But what we also have to remember is Christianity is not dependent upon any particular form of government.

And as we know today, we’re just celebrating right now, right? That there was a release of a Christian pastor in China last Friday. and we rejoice in that. But some of the fastest growing churches in the world are growing in places of extreme oppression and persecution where they don’t have religious liberty, places like Iran and Iraq and places like China. And so while I do agree with you that it is

the load bearing wall of democracy in many ways, it’s not dependent upon any one particular form of government.

Mark Beckwith (39:00)
Well, in the interaction which Braver Angels is promoting and I think the Demson Forum is promoting as well, that to engage our faith in appropriate ways in in in our local communities. courageous citizenship is something that is the new and important

phrase

of braver angels to engage people to exercise their courageous citizenship, which I think certainly St. Paul talks about and Jesus would certainly affirm affirm maybe in different ways. I think these are all very, very important. And Mark, I really appreciate this time that we’ve that we’ve had together and to hear

Our common passion and some of our disagreements, but are still held together by this common passion for our faith, which guides my life, clearly guides yours, and indeed sets us free and to use your term for human flourishing. Mark, how can people stay connected to you?

Mark Turman (40:11)
Yeah, the easiest way to find me and to find our work is at denisonforum dot org. And you can find the Faith and Clarity Podcast, the daily article written by Dr. Dennison and his son, Dr. Ryan Denison, a lot of other resources. All of that is available at just denisonforum.org.

Mark Beckwith (40:30)
Thank you. And people can follow me at markbeckwith.net, this podcast, which will be released soon, and the regular blogs that I write. And BraverAngels.org is this network of of individuals and groups that are working to bring people together across difference. as we close, Mark, may I offer a prayer?

Mark Turman (40:55)
Please do. Thank you for the opportunity to talk today.

Mark Beckwith (40:59)
Gracious God, thank you for our life together with each other and with you. For the many ways you call us in this mystery of what it means to be human, offering the best of who we are to serve others so that we all may flourish and to live in the image that you have set in each and every one of us. May we be blessed and may we bless.

as disciples of your gift and mercy. In your name we pray. Amen.

Mark Turman (41:31)
Amen. Thank you, Mark. It’s great to be with you.

Mark Beckwith (41:35)
Thank you.

Mark: Thank you for listening to this episode of Reconciliation Roundtable. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform, and visit mark beckwith.net to stay up to date with new episodes, log content, and other news. Please, if you could, rate and review this podcast on iTunes [Apple Podcasts]. It helps new listeners to find us.

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