Listen / Subscribe

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Mark: Welcome to Reconciliation Roundtable. I am Mark Beckwith, the host. I am the retired bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Newark and the author of Seeing the Unseen: Beyond Prejudices, Paradigms, and Party Lines. And with me today is presiding bishop, or former presiding bishop, Michael Curry, who just finished his tenure weeks ago of nine years as the leader of the Episcopal Church and primate of the province.

[00:00:37] He is known for his commitment and his eloquence and his passion and resounding message on “the way of love.” A message that is carried to many revivals across the church in 2017 and 2018. The rest of the world knows Bishop Curry from his sermon at the Royal Wedding of Harry and Meghan in May of 2018. It was passionate and inspiring, filled with hope for the couple and for all of us.

He is the author of Crazy Christians, published in 2013, and Love is the Way: Holding on to Hope in Troubled Times, published in 2020. I know Michael as a colleague and a friend, and we were classmates – graduating together from Berkeley Divinity School at Yale in 1978, a long time ago!

[00:01:34] Michael: It sure is! My Lord!

[00:01:37] Mark: Michael, welcome! Thank you for being part of this.

Oh, sure thing!

You’ve just finished an extraordinary tenure as bishop, which you were since 2000, and then you became presiding bishop in 2015. What have you learned in that time about the church and about the world?

[00:01:59] Michael: Oh my lord. Wow. Mark, thanks for having me, first of all. It’s great to get two old guys together. 1978. My lord, that was a long time ago.

Mark: Indeed!

Michael: But you know, I have to admit that over the years, as well as in my tenure as presiding bishop, one of the things I’ve become more and more aware of is… you know that song, How Great Thou Art? One of my grandma’s favorites, that was in her top 10 hit parade. She just loved that hymn. And I think I know why.

[00:02:30] The truth is, God really is great. Who was it? Anselm of Canterbury said, “God is that of which nothing greater can be thought.” And I think there’s a lot of truth and wisdom in that. Because problems come in when we try to make God small enough that we can control God and that God can serve us, rather than the other way around, to be honest. And I have to admit, both in my time as presiding bishop but also as a parish priest and then a bishop in the diocese in North Carolina, I’ve realized that God keeps getting bigger and bigger. Which is a way of saying, not that God is getting bigger, but my perceptions of God keep getting enlarged and enlarged.

[00:03:13] I mean, that has just been so consistent, that God’s not this small… you even look in the Bible, God starts out as kind of a tribal God, and eventually, when you get to Isaiah in the Hebrew scriptures, you get a God who’s talking about a new creation, justice for the whole earth, “the earth will be filled with the glory of God as the waters cover the sea.” As it says in Isaiah. That this dream of justice and love and compassion that emanates from God is for the whole world. Like the old spiritual says, “He’s got the whole world in his hands.” God is just… bigger. A lot bigger than I ever thought God was. And still, every time I think I’ve “got” God, God gets bigger! That has been mind-blowing. And at the same time, the world has gotten smaller.

[00:04:04] And what I mean by that, I don’t mean that it’s small, but my experience of people is that we’re really not that different. We’re really not. I mean that old hierarchy of needs from Maslow that we all learned about, you know, it’s real. That our basic human needs… some are biological, some are social, some are psychological, but some are deeply spiritual. That spiritual hunger, as people like Howard Thurman talked about, it is in everybody. Now, we may deny it and ignore it, but it’s there. Theologians would say it more elegantly, but there’s a great God shaped hole at the center of all of us, and ain’t no amount of liquor or drugs gonna fill that. Nothing can fill that except the living, liberating, loving, life giving God who made us all and loves us all and wants us to live into that love and live out of it and change the world by that.

[00:05:00] I mean, I keep discovering that, and you know, there’s a part of me that thinks when we were back in seminary, I should have had this figured out.. I didn’t. [Laughs]

[00:05:08] Mark: Well, you say, not expressing it all that eloquently theologically, Michael, I know very few people, if any, who are more eloquent in conveying the faith than you are. And I am not alone. Thank you, brother. And as you reflect back, and my guess is you’re just beginning that process, is there anything from your tenure, particularly as presiding bishop – what you learned, what you saw, what you felt, that you want people to know; what you want to pass on, what you want people to claim.

[00:05:44] Michael: I mean, I do think that there are images and understandings of what it is to be Christian and Christianity that aren’t always in alignment with Jesus of Nazareth.

[00:05:57] And I mean, we can talk about Christian nationalism in the conversation, I mean, those are extreme forms, but they’re real. But there is a popular perception of Christianity, at least in this country now, I’m not sure about around the world, that it’s a “right-wing phenomenon,” that it’s aligned with particular ideologies, whether left or right, to be very honest.

[00:06:22] And that narrows it from the way of following Jesus of Nazareth.

We did a poll with Ipsos about three years ago. We kind of nicknamed it “Jesus in America.” But what it was, was an attempt to get a sense of public perceptions of Christianity. And one of the things that stood out. And this was a scientific survey, this wasn’t just, you know, a small group. It was a real survey. Ipsos does a lot of political things and they, they were intrigued by doing it with a church group.

And nearly 50 percent of those surveyed really believed that the Church and Christians were particularly allied with patterns of racism, political biases, injustices, and that kind of thing. It was remarkable. It was between 45 and 50 percent of people surveyed. It was stunning to see that public perception of the American population.

When the question was asked about Jesus of Nazareth, it was in the 90s percent, whether they were followers of Christianity or followers of Christ, that wasn’t the point, actually believed that Jesus of Nazareth has something to say that’s worth paying attention to.

[00:07:37] And that’s when there was a part of me that said, “Wow… we are missing the mark with our own faith and letting it slip out of our hands into other ideological territory that’s not the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount, that’s not the Jesus who made love the supreme law of God in the center of it, it’s not the Jesus who talked about a way that would bring, as Isaiah said, liberty to those who are captive, restoring sight to the blind,” and on and on and on.

[00:08:08] That Jesus of Nazareth hasn’t always gotten through our lips or through our communications as effectively, both by what we say and by what we do. And that’s something I want to keep working at in some way, shape, manner, or form. I just think… chipping away at public perceptions, which sometimes are accurate in terms of the way we act, but often aren’t accurate in terms of the actual faith itself.

[00:08:34] Mark: And as you look out into the future, taking stock of what you’ve seen in the Church, what leadership do you think the Church needs as we deal with this smaller world and this bigger God?

[00:08:48] Michael: Oh, wow. Wow. You know, I do think many of the attachments that have come with the status of mainline Christianity in the era of Christendom are going to have to be shed, to get to the core.

[00:09:08] And I think some of that’s happening, not because any of us particularly are trying to do it. It’s just going to happen, whether we like it or not. But I think sometimes, you know, we bemoan that, but I think that may be a liberating thing for us. It may help us get closer to the core of this faith, the authentic basis in the way of Jesus and his way of love. To actually get distilled down to its essence.

[00:09:38] So I think in the long run, that’s going to be a good thing, even though it won’t be easy. It’s not an easy transformation, you know, it’s just not. But the days of Christianity propping up empire are over. And if they’re not over, they should be, you know?

[00:09:54] Mark: Well, in our tradition, the Episcopal Church, was it 1920 that we established our headquarters in New York to be sort of cheek and jowl with the corporate model. And then around the same time, after we built the cathedral in Washington, we just decided “this is the national cathedral!”

Michael: I know… I know!

Mark: You know, the hubris of that, and it’s a spectacular building, an amazing gathering place. And you have certainly helped to establish that and to step out of “we’re the the status denomination” and instead to really claim Jesus in the articles “love” and “justice” and “mercy.”

[00:10:37] Michael: Yes. That’s the rock on which the real church is built. Like my grandma used to sing “On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.” That’s the solid rock in Christ. And that’s where we will find our life anew, and it’s gonna happen, you know, we have to be deconstructed to be reconstructed.

[00:10:56] Mark: Yeah, and as we look at the Christian world in this country, there are lots of divides, one of which Could be stated as the difference or the divide between evangelicals and mainline folks. I mean, in my ministry, 45 years now, rarely have I had relationships with people on the evangelical side of Christianity and vice versa.

[00:11:21] And I know you’ve spent a lot of time trying to build those bridges. How do you see reconciliation and bringing together those disparate expressions of Christianity?

[00:11:34] Michael: It’s very difficult work. It really is, to be honest. Primarily because it almost has to be person to person. Because the attachment to all of our ideological values, and I didn’t say theological, all of our ideological instincts, proclivities. baggage, whatever the right language is, further divides us and, and creates walls of separation between us and makes it more difficult. But every once in a while, individual people who are committed to the way of Christ in their lives and really do try to live out of that way of love for real find common ground, even with profound differences of politics, lifestyle, I mean, you can go down the list.

[00:12:25] And it takes that. And the institutional follows that. That’s something I didn’t realize ahead of time. Because that divide between mainline and evangelical, just to use that as an example, it runs ideologically deep. Not necessarily theologically. I think it’s more ideological and that depth isn’t necessarily overcome by more ideology…

[00:12:54] Mark: It just gets in the way.

[00:13:00] Michael: Exactly. But the deep spirituality, which has theological integrity to it, is where the possibility of reconciliation or relationship, whatever the right words are, become possible. And usually, it is through relationship. It really is. I mean, I can think of a number of people who I’ve met just as presiding bishop and have shared fellowship with who are, we’re not in the same ideological space.

[00:13:32] But there’s something about our personal relationship, that for us is grounded in Jesus Christ and his way of love and life that is bigger or deeper or something than all of my biases and proclivities. And I won’t name them, but I can think of people that I’ve worked with and spent time with who… I don’t think we necessarily vote the same way.

[00:13:59] Mark: You’re “just saying,” right?

[00:14:01] Michael: Yeah, and you try to build a relationship on that… you’re sending me? It doesn’t work. But if a relationship is built on “We share a common faith and a common Lord…” I love that hymn, “The king of love, my shepherd is, whose goodness faileth never.” If we share that, we got something to build on.

[00:14:24] I mean one person who I’m actually thinking of, I mean, folks don’t know, but I was sick almost a year, off and on, between neurological stuff and cardiological… It was like everything that could go wrong with a body decided to go wrong in one year! I mean, it was like, “Good Lord!” So while all that was going on, I tell you, one of the people who kept praying for me, and I would periodically get little texts from him, was somebody that we don’t necessarily agree on a lot of the politics. Not all of it. There’s some that we do, actually. But we agree on the way of Jesus and his way of living, his way of loving. And that, that creates common ground. There’s common ground.

And I would think related to that, we’re both Americans. And there’s actually common ground when we look at the values that this country hasn’t always lived up to, but in spite of ourselves, we have espoused. And when you’re there, we discover common ground.

[00:15:25] I don’t know. I mean, again, that’s been a deeper discovery for me in these last 10, 15 years. 20 years or so.

[00:15:32] Mark: Sure. Well, that leads into the work that I’ve been involved in, and you’ve been very supportive of with Braver Angels.

Michael: Yes.

Mark: Which is a bridge building movement, and it’s the largest one now in the country, not to pull one side to the other, but to see if we can find common ground. And with the divide between red and blue, it’s getting more and more necessary to engage in this work, A; and B, I refer to Braver Angels as “the secular version of the Anglican movement.” We were created in tension 500 years ago, that seemingly at the time was not going to be resolved. And we found a way in between. And I commit to Braver Angels because I see it as an extension of my faith, and I deeply appreciate your support of it.

[00:16:28] And how do you see, beyond what you’ve just already said, this reconciliation between red and blue? How do you see that being lived out?

[00:16:38] Michael: Where I’ve seen it lived out, and I’ve got a feeling you’d say the same thing, has been in personal relationships. I never thought I’d actually say it, and yet it makes sense.

[00:16:48] Who is it? Phyllis Brooks, who said, “preaching is the communication of truth through personality.” I think when the Word becomes flesh and dwells among us, then we see grace and truth. I just don’t think there’s a substitute for actual human relationships that can weather a lot of “storm.”

[00:17:14] I mean, this is going to sound a little bit ridiculous, but I don’t think it is… In marriage, we actually have the audacity to think that two people who are going to be different, no matter who they are, can actually be in a relationship that can weather the test of time. That’s what it is. I mean, marriage is not two people who are the same coming together. It’s people who are different.

[00:17:39] And I’ve got a theory that… I’m probably going to get in trouble. This is one of my “theological theories,” that the issue in the book of Genesis in chapters 2 and 3, you know, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and all that, had nothing to do with gender. It had to do with mathematics. As long as there was just one, there was no problem, because all the attention went to that one, but as soon as you had two or more, man, that took work! To get two to work together, for the two to become one flesh, so to speak.

[00:18:11] Human relationships are like that. That’s the nature of human community. It takes work. It doesn’t happen automatically or on autopilot, and yet it can happen. I mean, beloved community can happen, but it takes, doggone it takes work. I’m just using marriage as an obvious example, anybody who’s married knows what I’m talking about. Marriage is a big headache. And yet when it works, it is filled with grace. It really is.

[00:18:37] And the same thing with any kind of relationship. And when you take that out and move it into broader community, move it into nations, move it into organizations, move it into religious traditions… When you do that, you discover that it is those personal relationships that can move the political and the social.

[00:18:58] You got to do both. I’m not saying you don’t do the broader political stuff, but the broader political stuff doesn’t, democracy doesn’t work unless people care about each other. It just doesn’t. You know, if you look at the motto, e pluribus unum, “out of many, one,” I mean, that goes back to, well, Cicero, his writings, where he was writing actually about how the Roman family was constituted. And in one of his writings he said, “when one person learns to love another as much as they love themselves, then e pluribus unum becomes possible.” I mean, that is the reality. Now there’s social things that can help that and foster it or can diminish it, but it is those relationships.

[00:19:42] I’ve heard members of, or people who were in Congress in the 90s when relationships were kind of cut off between the parties, between red and blue, actually [say] that fostered the kind of political environment that we find ourselves in, because when those relationships were cut off, when people were no longer in Washington together, they weren’t going to each other’s bar mitzvahs and baptisms, just normal weddings and the normal human kind of things that are signs of relationships. See what I mean? Everybody was going back to their own home. And that has led to the kind of dysfunction that we are seeing even right now.

[00:20:25] It’s probably not an accident that God identifies, is identified, at least in the Hebrew scriptures, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” They’re people. This is a relational thing, and what’s true for God is true for us.

[00:20:39] Mark: Well, we were both there 16 years ago or so at Lambeth Conference in England, and the preacher on a particular afternoon was Jonathan Sacks, Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, who has since died. He was then the chief rabbi in England, and he grew up in Anglican schools. He was a rabbi, but he knew all about us.

[00:21:01] And he said we’re the largest volunteer organization in the world. Then he yelled at us. He said, “you have to stay together for the sake of the rest of us, because if you break apart, that’s going to cascade through all these other relationships.” And I remember that as if it were yesterday because we almost did break apart, the Anglican communion.

[00:21:26] But what I discovered, my takeaway is that our relationships were deeper than our differences. And you have been speaking to that in your tenure as a bishop, but more particularly in your tenure as presiding bishop, speaking to our relationships.

[00:21:44] Michael: They’re critical. It’s so simple and yet so critical. You can have the greatest constitution. We’ve got the Declaration of Independence. You got all that. We actually have a magnificent form of government and all that stuff. It doesn’t work if there aren’t relationships. But if those relationships are there, it can work. That’s what Cicero actually was getting at. I mean, he wasn’t talking about the United States, but yeah, but he was talking about how family comes into being. It’s not just about blood ties.

[00:22:15] Mark: There are many issues that keep us divided. One that stands out for me, and I think for you, is the whole issue of gun violence. And you have been very supportive to Bishops United Against Gun Violence, which is now in our 13th year and was formed after the Newtown shootings. But I remember your response two years ago, after the Tops shooting in Buffalo, your hometown, when ten black people were targeted and killed and three others were wounded. Your hometown, and you responded to that as bishop, as person, as Black man.

What wisdom can we find as we continue to deal with this incredible tension and lethal problem in our country?

[00:23:06] Michael: Well, I tell you one thing, we cannot, we do not have the option of giving up. We do not have that option, or better yet, we do not have the option to do nothing.

[00:23:17] The reality is, the deep change that’s going to be necessary finally to address the escalating scale of violence and gun violence… I mean, it’s deep, it’s there. It’s going to take time and hard work and a lot of people. And a lot of us, it’s got to be massive culture change. It’s just going to take people like you and Bishops United Against Gun Violence and a whole bunch of other people who are out there and sometimes feel like they’re crying into the wind.

[00:23:45] Mark: Absolutely.

[00:23:46] Michael: God Almighty. And it does. But what I know is Dr. King was right when he said that progress does not happen on wheels of inevitability but by the blood, sweat, tears, and prayers of people who, like Harriet Tubman, will not quit. She was reputed as often telling folks, “You keep going, no matter what you face, you keep going. That’s what you do. You keep going.” “If you want to taste freedom,” the quote says, “you keep going.” Now, whether she actually said all that or whether that’s just sort of legend, who knows? But you know, it’s her. It certainly fits. And I think that’s the reality.

[00:24:21] My grandfather was a railroad guy and was a member of the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters. And he went to the March on Washington, but not the one in 1963. A. Philip Randolph and the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters had a march on Washington, I think it was in the late 30s. That one didn’t have much effect in its time, you know, it’s in the Great Depression and then the war came, so it didn’t have that much obvious impact.

[00:24:47] And I’m sure Eleanor Roosevelt paid attention. Franklin, I assume did, but they can only move stuff so far. It didn’t have that much effect. The one in 63 had an effect. And sometimes it takes a while, but what you don’t have is the arrogance to give up. It arises from despair, but it’s actually a form of arrogance, that “I can give up and it won’t matter. Cause I’m going to have mine.”

[00:25:11] And we get tired. I mean, gosh, we’re human beings. You just get worn down. And sometimes you say, “is anything going to change this?” but we cannot and must not give up because things can and do change, but not on inevitability. It’s hard work, blood, sweat, tears, and prayers, all that put together. And the arc bends!

[00:25:35] Mark: As you’re talking about this, it reminds me of a sermon that we both heard our first year in seminary by Gardner Taylor. And he told the story of preaching before the Selma march. And he was the second to last preacher. Martin Luther King was the last one. And he said, in the middle of his sermon, the lights went out.

[00:25:58] Michael: Oh, yeah. Yes.

[00:25:59] Mark: The lights went out, and he expected the worst. And here, this golden throated preacher was struck dumb. And they figured that doors would burst open, people would come in with clubs or guns or both, and it had happened before… And in the silence comes this older woman’s voice. “Preach on preacher! We can still see Jesus in the dark.”

Michael: Yes!

Mark:  I have told that story more times than I should have, but it’s like I heard it yesterday.

Michael: Yes. You just brought that memory back. Oh, my God.

Mark: I mean, it was like being kicked in the stomach when he told the story. We can still see Jesus in the dark.

[00:26:41] Michael: Oh, my Lord. I had forgotten the story. And literally you’re retelling it… I remember the moment hearing it.

[00:26:48] Mark: Yeah. I mean, he was widely regarded as the best preacher in the English language until he died eight, nine years ago at 96 or 97, something like that. And just a sterling person in every which way.

[00:27:03] Michael: Oh, Mark, thank you for that. Oh, I remember those lectures.

[00:27:09] Now I was going to say, that’s why I refuse to give up! And we need each other, kind of like that story in the Bible, in the Gospel, where the four guys bring their friend in, and they lower him down the roof of this house Jesus is in, so they can get him there. And we need, it takes all four or five of us, that community, because sometimes some of us are paralyzed. Paralyzed by the enormity of what’s going on and intractability of it. And sometimes I need you to carry me and other times you need me to carry you. But if we all keep carrying each other, that’s how we can make it. That’s how we make it. Because it’s tough.

[00:27:47] Mark: It’s tough, and there are days, you know, trying to reduce gun violence and bring about reconciliation, those are two big rocks up very steep hills. And some days I just want to hide under a rock, but then I get to talk to people like you who just light the fire again, and we’ll light the fires for each other.

[00:28:06] Michael: Because you keep doing it. It’s people like you who won’t quit, who are dogged. Doggone it, you just keep going. You keep going. That’s why one of my favorite characters in the Bible is Mary Magdalene.

[00:28:17] I just think that sister, she kept going no matter what. When everybody else gave up, when all the brothers, the male disciples, God bless them, they got there eventually, but they weren’t there at the foot of the cross. It was just, standing alone, it was Mary Magdalene and the sisters and the one beloved disciple.

[00:28:34] He was the one guy who showed up. But Mary, doggone it, she was there when it was risky, when it was clearly the darkest hour. And it was her voice on that Easter morning. She and the other sisters went to the tomb. They didn’t go there expecting to see a guy alive. They went there to anoint the body. You know what I mean?

[00:28:54] They went there for the funeral. And yet it was Mary who just kept going and kept going even when she didn’t understand. Or didn’t have an expectation of what would all this lead to. She kept going and she was the one that awakened the faith in the other disciples and followers and it was because of her that they were eventually able to see Jesus alive, and not quit, and keep going. And you and I are followers of Jesus because of them. Because they kept going against the odds and against the titanic power of death. That’s powerful stuff!

[00:29:34] Mark: Yeah. Well, this has been powerful stuff and you’ve already answered the question but I’m going to ask it anyway, how best to kindle and support the way of love, which has been kind of your signature message?

[00:29:48] Michael: You know, it really is a matter of how do we fuel faith so that, like a fire, it’s constantly kindled and rekindled?

[00:30:00] And you kind of said it earlier. I mean, it takes us together. It really does take that community, however small or big, and it doesn’t matter, it takes that community to rekindle that flame and, you know, it’s like Jeremiah’s “fire shut up in my bones.” You got to rekindle that fire that can keep you going and you got to rekindle it again. It is like a fire, it kind of goes down and then you got to rekindle it again. And that happens in community. I mean, on some level, I expect that’s why we go to church… [Laughs]

Yeah, you know, times like this when we’re together, just talking.

[00:30:47] Mark: Michael, this has been great. This has been great. And your voice and your face are well known around the world. People say to me, “Gee, I think he’s a nice guy.” And my response is always the same. “You have no idea. He’s even nicer than what you imagine him to be!” It’s easy to say, and what a delight to be able to have this conversation, and we’ll have more because, you know, we’re tired old guys, but we’re still at it!

[00:31:15] Michael: It’s true. We’re still at it. We don’t quit.

Mark: Yeah. We don’t quit. So, Michael, how can people keep following you? Website, podcast, where do people access what it is that you’re doing and speaking? People want to keep hearing you.

[00:31:30] Michael: We’ve been talking about keeping The Way of Love podcast going. So we’re gonna do that. We just haven’t done it yet. That will be, I think, one way, and I’ve got to figure out how do I… I’ve never done this before. So this is like going to be like kindergarten. I think I’ve got to reinvent myself, but I’m going to keep traveling and doing stuff and speaking, but the podcast, The Way of Love, I think that’s going to be the primary way. And because Bishop Sean is encouraging me and said, “We need you to do that.” He’s just doing really been wonderful about that.

[00:31:58] Mark: Well, thank you for this time together. Presiding Bishop Michael Curry, my classmate, my friend. I’m Mark Beckwith, host of Reconciliation Roundtable, and you can find this podcast wherever you get your podcasts, also on my website, markbeckwith.net, where I blog regularly. I’m the author of Seeing the Unseen Beyond Prejudices, Paradigms, and Party Lines. Michael, blessing to you.

[00:32:25] Michael: Blessing to you, brother!

————-

Copyright © 2025 Mark Beckwith. All rights reserved. Contact for questions involving permission to use portions of the audio or transcript elsewhere.

Transcripts are created with the assistance of automatic tools. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of this podcast is the audio record.