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[00:00:00] Mark: Welcome to the Reconciliation Roundtable. I am Mark Beckwith, your host, retired bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Newark in New Jersey, and author of Seeing the Unseen: Beyond Prejudices, Paradigms, and Party Lines. I gather with religious leaders to talk about their faith journeys and what they see in the landscape of America.

[00:00:26] Before I introduce my guest, Jim Wallis, I want to invite you to consider a Lenten discipline. A Lenten discipline of fasting, which is, yes, self-denial, but more importantly than that, it’s a “yes.” A yes to God’s mercy, God’s justice, God’s compassion, God’s hope. And given all the things that are coming at us and the anxiety, anger, and fear that it’s producing, I think a spiritual discipline is important, and I invite you to join with me in it.

[00:01:01] Sojourners is doing a vigil every Wednesday, beginning Ash Wednesday at the Capitol, and they’ll have speakers and so forth. What I want to do is on Wednesdays, in Lent and beyond, to have a Sabbath fast. A fast from food, a fast from any kind of economic activity and a fast from reading or listening to media.

[00:01:25] The Old Testament scholar Walter Brueggeman would argue that the Sabbath day is a day when we’re free from the production consumption system. And we are assaulted now by the production consumption system. The idea is to reconnect to who I am and whose I am. I’m trying to promote this elsewhere with the Sojourners community, with the Episcopal Church, and with others. I invite you to join with me in this Sabbath.

[00:01:55] And today it’s my honor and privilege to introduce to you Jim Wallis, who is a theologian, author, and primarily known as an activist. He’s built relationships in so many arenas over the years with leaders of Congress, with presidents with religious leaders. He’s the founder of the Sojourners community in Washington, DC and Sojourners Magazine.

[00:02:20] He now holds the relatively newly formed Desmond Tutu Chair for Faith and Justice at Georgetown University. The author of many books, God’s Politics: Why The Right Gets It Wrong and The Left Doesn’t Get It in 2008. America’s Original Sin in 2015, talking about America’s racial history, The False White Gospel in 2024.

[00:02:47] Those are the books that I have read, plus many other articles and appearances and challenges. Jim, welcome. It’s great to have you be a part of all of this.

[00:02:59] Jim: It’s great to be with you. Good to see you again, and I appreciate the conversations we’ve had and looking forward to this one.

[00:03:07] Mark: Jim, I want to start with the position that you hold now at Georgetown.

[00:03:12] Jim: Yeah.

[00:03:13] Mark: Faith and justice, often they are separated, more conservative Christians say, we’re focused on faith and sort of abandon justice, and those who are on the more progressive end, we’re focused on justice and are accused of letting go of faith. How do you hold faith and justice together?

[00:03:36] Jim: It’s a great question. In fact, faith and justice are often taboo subjects of cocktail parties or Thanksgiving dinners. But my two favorite words, my whole life, have been faith and justice. Putting those two together. And I think, in fact, I want to start with faith because it’s my personal faith, wanting to be a follower of Jesus, to commit myself to the justice that we so long for in our society. And Jesus in particular talks about the least of these. And my own conversion text, my story (you ask about our stories): So I was kicked out of my little evangelical church as a teenage boy in Detroit, a Plymouth Brethren Church, over the issue of race, which they weren’t ready to talk about or deal with or even acknowledge.

[00:04:31] War in Vietnam and poverty all around us in Detroit, I thought those should be faith issues while I was taught as a kid. And they said, “no, no, we don’t deal with those issues.” In fact, I remember an elder took me aside. He had heard that I was going back and forth in Detroit visiting Black churches, and I took jobs downtown Detroit with young Black men my age to try and learn what was happening in Detroit.

[00:04:59] And he said, “Jim, you have to understand that Christianity has nothing to do with racism.” “That’s political,” he said, “and our faith is personal.” And here the thing that was turning me upside down was just changing my whole framework and perspective. If that had nothing to do with my faith, then I wanted nothing to do with it either.

[00:05:23] So I left it behind and I went on to the secular movements in my student years at Michigan State University. The movements of my time around war and race and poverty, and I came back to my faith with this text from Matthew 25. I call it the “it was me” text. Jesus says I was hungry, it was me. I was thirsty, I was naked, I was a stranger (the word means immigrant there), I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t engage me. You didn’t care for me. You didn’t show up for me. And I said, “Lord, when do we see you hungry and thirsty and naked and sick, and a stranger?” And he says, “as you’ve done to the least of these, you have done to me.” That changed my life, and it was more radical than anything I’d read at Ho Chi Minh, Karl Marx and Che Guevara.

[00:06:17] So I wanted to be a follower of Jesus, and that was the text that brought me, and it’s what connects my faith to justice.

[00:06:27] Mark: In 2013, you wrote a book called On God’s Side. I haven’t read that one, but Abraham Lincoln indicated that he wanted to be on God’s side. He didn’t assume that God was on his side.

[00:06:39] A lot of people, people of faith say that they have God on their side, and there are moments in my life and perhaps in yours as well that I want to say that, but I think it’s scriptural and theological error. How do you recommend we deal with that arrogance and certainty when we say God is on my side?

[00:07:04] Jim: I think that word is the right word, Mark. Arrogance and certainty, because what Lincoln on the contrary demonstrated so powerfully was reflection instead of certainty. And humility instead of arrogance. And as you rightly point out that sometimes we as people of faith in the churches are so full of arrogance and we miss that humility. I love the way the prophet Micah puts it.

[00:07:35] “What does the Lord require?” And it’s, to do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with your God. And those three are all very important. I’m glad he begins with justice as I want to as well. But then he says, “be kind,” even be kind to your opponents and be kind to those who differ with. I do a devotion every morning I found very helpful, and it ends with be kind to everyone.

[00:08:04] And then walk humbly. We justice advocates don’t always walk so humbly.

[00:08:14] Mark: Yeah. Well, interestingly enough, it was pointed out to me several years ago by Gene Robinson, my colleague and friend, and another activist that in the back of the Episcopal Prayer book in the catechism, there’s a mistake. It misquotes Micah and says to “love justice, do mercy and walk humbly.”

[00:08:34] And I’m thinking, I know so many people who love justice and write no end of arguments about justice, and they will do it. Yeah. That’s a challenge I think that we often have in the religious world and doing justice to me is so critical. And I want to say as you Mark and I get, get older, which we are, we’re still very young in spirit.

[00:09:02] I’ve met you, we talked to you. I certainly feel a lot of energy every day, but as we get older, we do realize we don’t have answers to all of the questions. And that leads us to go deeper. And a willingness to listen to others and a humility of spirit, which I think presidents are not usually very humble in spirit.

[00:09:25] People in power generally aren’t, but Lincoln was, and he knew he didn’t have all the answers, but he was seeking the answers, and he wanted all of us to hear what God’s saying to us and repent of our terrible sins. Lincoln was very clear in that he was unusual as president in that regard. And I’ve known several presidents, but he was unusual in that humility.

[00:09:53] Mark: That said, there are a lot of Christian groups that want to assume that power, indeed, that dominion, how best to respond to that?

[00:10:14] Jim: Well, you said dominion. There is actually, as you know, Mark, a Dominionist theology that goes way back to even before the country was officially founded. Doctrine of Discovery, hateful edicts, and giving white Europeans the right to exercise dominion over the indigenous people who were here and who we displaced and committed, it was almost genocide. Yes. And then kidnapped Africans to make into property, chattel property, slaves. That Dominionist theology has continued over the years. And now I regard this movement of Christian nationalism, which we can call from its history “white Christian nationalism,” and is the newest form of Dominionist theology.

[00:11:09] And I love what King said. He said the Church needs to be reminded… and he would say not just the church, but all of our faith traditions, but the church needs to be reminded that it is not the master of the state, nor the servant of the state, but the conscience of the state. And for me, that means we’re not the master.

[00:11:34] We shouldn’t be in control wanting to use power. To push our agenda or enforce or dominate our agenda over other others. We’re not the ones who take control, which what Christian nationalism is really saying, no we just take care, clean up the mess, take care of the victims, which we’re good at doing in the churches, our charity, pulling bodies out of the river.

[00:12:01] We’re good at that, but not sending somebody upstream to see what or who is pushing people in. But we’re the conscience of the state. Now, religion has no monopoly on morality, I would say. I say that to my students at Georgetown who have many faith traditions and none at all. But religion is supposed to provide a moral conscience for this state.

[00:12:24] So to me, that’s important to remember as we move into this new era, what religion is supposed to be. Not the master, not the servant, but the conscience of the state.

[00:12:36] Mark: An earlier podcast that I did was with Matthew Taylor, who is becoming the expert on the New Apostolic Reformation. Wrote a book, “The Violent Take It by Force,” and it’s a chilling book.

[00:12:47] And I remember sort of poo-pooing this movement and he said “You can’t do that. They’re big, they’re well-funded, they’re well organized.” Your take on the NAR and how we other Christians can address them? Often, they refer to those who don’t subscribe to their theology as demonic, that we’re involved in spiritual warfare and all of that. So your thought about how we can address being in contact in a relationship?

[00:13:21] Jim: Well, Lance Walnau is a leader and Major Garrett of CBS did a long interview with him about what he believes and then came over to my office here and did one with me to respond to all that. And at the rallies, there really is an ardent nationalism. And you know, we don’t worship a nation, we worship God. And this was an issue back in the 1930s. People like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Karl Barth made clear we don’t worship nations as the German church finally did with the rise of totalitarianism. We worship God. And that has to be very clear, which gives us an independence that people like the new apostolic movement don’t really have, but they’re dependent on the power of the state.

[00:14:12] And they feel like they won an election. They won the ballot box. So they’re full of energy now and they want to dominate. Lance Walnau talks about this “Seven mountains mandate” you know, education and economy and religion and arts and media… all of which they want to dominate, and that’s not the way Jesus, to dominate, but to love and serve and to in fact focus on the vulnerable.

[00:14:41] So I’m saying these days to people who voted, whatever way they voted, defending the vulnerable is central to following Jesus. And one of those categories in that text in Matthew 25 is a stranger; the immigrant, the refugees, and how we respond to threats of mass deportation… perhaps with religious non-cooperation.

[00:15:10] Second, to defend the truth. You know, we heard in a remarkable farewell address from Joe Biden talking about the growing oligarchy in the country around social media, AI that distorts the truth and spreads falsehoods and really undermines the truth. And Jesus said, “you’ll know the truth and the truth will make you free,” which means to me, the opposite of truth isn’t just lies but it’s captivity. Being captive to lies. And so those principles going forward, I think defending the vulnerable, defending the truth, not just journalists, reporters, but pastors in their pulpits. Then finding the courage to stand up for what we say we believe. I want people now to know who the followers of Jesus are, and I think that’s important to have that conversation.

[00:16:10] I ran into one of the people who probably be in the new White House, a spiritual advisor. I just bumped into him yesterday at Georgetown and he said, “We’ve met before, we’ve talked before.” And I said “Yeah, let’s talk again.” And so I’m happy to talk to any of those folks.

[00:16:28] Mark: We had Occupy Wall Street when I was serving in New Jersey. I remember going over to Zuccotti Park and seeing all these people camped out and it was raising the issue of the 1%, and it was a protest and it was replicated I think in 700 places around the world. Something like that. In some ways it was a nostalgic journey for me and I kept looking around [wondering] “where are the Hare Krishnas?” because it took me back to my anti-war days in college.

[00:16:58] But what was interesting about it, highlighting the 1%, but there really wasn’t a clear ask. And I remember reading a book by Michael White who was one of the organizers of Occupy Wall Street and on one level it was enormously successful because there were 700 of these things, but there wasn’t a clear ask.

[00:17:19] A lot of people came, he said, and issued their protests and then went home. You know, and thought, well, they had done their work. And the oligarchs or the heads of industries thought “this is fine, because they’re expressing themselves, they’ll release their energy and then it’ll go away.” What is the ask from your perspective and all the work that you’ve done and the conversations you have had? What is the ask that we need to make?

[00:17:53] Jim: Well, that’s a big question. And being in Washington where I’m sitting now. I’m not sure what will be possible in Washington. I think the control, the trifecta, control of the house, the Senate, and the White House is going on now with a new administration, new era, and we had a retreat the other day of a lot of faith leaders and we’re all committed to defending the poor to low income people regardless of how people voted.

[00:18:27] And they’re in trouble. The poor are in trouble. So one is to defend the poor, and we’ve been told that things like Medicaid, healthcare for poor people or SNAP – nutrition, food stamps, are really under attack. Immigrants under attack. So I think we start by taking Matthew 25 seriously. The Bible doesn’t reveal a God of charity, but a God of justice.

[00:18:55] So standing alongside the poor and vulnerable, I think that’s got to be crucial. And that’s not just showing up for a march, as you say. I was in that part too, speaking to those protestors a long time ago. But it means day to day in our own lives, our states, our cities, and I think democracy has its roots really in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible, Genesis 1 26.

[00:19:25] I hear all the noise that threatens democracy. I love to go to that text because it says, then God said like, be quiet noise. Then God said, and what God says is, let us create humankind in our own image and after our own likeness, that we are all made in the image and likeness of God as such a powerful thing, and that’s the foundation for democracy.

[00:19:53] And so that means in the days ahead when democracy is going to be threatened by Kawa. Eisenhower talked about the military industrial complex and how that was a threat. Here’s a former general in his farewell address, and for this warning us against us, which has led to bloated defense. Alleged defense budget, useless expensive weapons.

[00:20:21] And wars that were wrong based on lies Vietnam for me and now Iraq. And now we hear Joe Biden’s Farwell address, like Eisenhower wanting as this tech industrial complex, social media and AI and all that. And I think those battles cannot be won by just showing up for a demonstration or a march. It’s going to be a real battle as many of us like to say from the soul of this nation, and it’s going to be day-to-day decisions and choices. And I say up on Capitol Hill, “a budget is a moral document.” Whether it’s budget for a nation, for a state, for a city, for an organization, for a church, for a family, it shows who and what’s important and who and what are not.

[00:21:14] And so how do we make sure. The ones that are most important to Jesus and Matthew 25 weighs them out clearly are the ones who are most important to us. And I want to say that to these new Apostolic reformation people or any people who are part of their religious right, were accountable to what Jesus. And so I think the ask is to do what Jesus taught us. For example, this good Samaritan parable, I still am struck by what that means for us. Now, here’s a lawyer. He’s coming, it says, to test Jesus, and he says, so what do I do to inherit an eternal life? And his tone of voice, I realized that the lawyer in the text is a Washington lawyer. I know that tone of voice, you know, “what do I do?”

[00:22:04] And he says, well, I think, oh, it’s in the law. You love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And then love your neighbors yourself. He says, okay, okay. Yeah, but who is my name? Right? It’s not welcoming, but exactly who am I? Then he says, well, let me give you an example. There was this Samaritan, and let me be clear, in Judean society, which he was addressing, there were no good Samaritan.

[00:22:30] Samaritans were dangerous and ethnically they were mixed race, dangerous and false worshipers, nothing good about them. So, here’s the Samaritans being othered. Like we see others now being othered immigrants, for example. And here’s another who stops when others pass in. By he stops to help this man, Rob Beatons.

[00:22:56] Who was Jewish. So there’s an other stopping to help someone from a society who has othered him and he stops to help, which means your neighbor might not be living in your neighborhood, the one Jesus tells you what. So outside our circles, outside our tribe, outside our neighborhoods, the others, this, the Good Samaritan is a real guideline.

[00:23:24] We long for is a multiracial democracy. It reflects the completely multiracial nature of the body of Christ. The most diverse community on the face of the planet is the body of Christ, all World. And we don’t see that lot here, but that’s what it’s supposed to be. So passages like that to me are an ask.

[00:23:49] So the ask is okay, level. Nation, love the Lord, your heart, soul, and then love your neighbor yourself and focus on the neighbor who’s different than.

[00:24:07] Mark: Yeah. And then what’s important to me in that story, having read it over and over again with my staff, when I was in Newark, the Samaritan, you know, picked him up, set him up in an inn, paid for his care, and then said, when I come back, right. I love it. It wasn’t a drive by, it was an ongoing relationship. And I think that’s part of the call for us to be neighbors is we just don’t do it once.

[00:24:35] Yeah. Is that we stay in relationship, which is an extra ask really. And something that we need to do.

[00:24:44] Jim: So well said. And it’s a risk, I mean, I lived on Jericho roads in my life and helping somebody is a risky thing. Say time, energy, resources, inconvenience, changing your schedule. Yeah. So that’s all there in the text.

[00:25:04] And then he paid two denari, which was about two weeks wages in those days. And so he gave them money, time, effort, and he said, and I’ll be back to make sure he is okay.

[00:25:14] Mark: Yeah. As we approach the new presidency, how do we all hold on to faith? And promote justice and at the same time, not be overly reactive.

[00:25:28] Jim: Well, again, I’m gonna want to put forward faith more than politics. We don’t know what’s up ahead of us. I will say, I think it’s true to say that we’ve had bad presidents in our history, some good and some bad, and some most who are a mix of good and bad, like most people are. This new president is indeed an autocrat, defines himself that way, and, and his promises and threats are quite authoritarian.

[00:25:59] So how far will our quare go is yet to be known, yet to be seen who evil will go after, who he will put in jeopardy. So I think be faithful to our principles and faithful to our faith. And as a Christian to Jesus in particular is what I want to do. I want to be prepared for the worst, but not expect the worst, and to see what happens and be willing to be courageous as much as is necessary in defending the people that Jesus says we have to defend.

[00:26:39] And I think we need a transformation in our politics. I often say, don’t go right, don’t go left, go deeper. Mm. And so even democracy has to be transformed from what it was under Biden or my old friend Obama. We need a deeper democracy where more people, particularly low income people, young people like my young sons and people of color, often don’t feel included in our democracy.

[00:27:10] That’s under Democrats too. So how do we go deeper here in this, whatever this crisis may be, even if it becomes a catastrophe, it could be an opportunity for us to go deeper into what we say and evil, and that’s what I hope we can do. Yeah.

[00:27:29] Mark: Over the decades you have had many, many conversations in the Congress, in the White House, in churches and universities. Are there patterns over the years that you can pick up things that hold us together that we need to learn?

[00:27:49] Jim: Yeah. Well, over the many years, long before my years began, I noticed that every renewal move, every revival, every. New order in the church comes by returning to the early Christian faith following Christ.

[00:28:11] It’s always a return of coming back in a new and different way. Every charismatic founder of any kind of renewal, revival, or new order always. So that’s what I want to keep doing. We’re just a part of that long history. And I think I am a Georgetown now, and I’m an honorary Jesuit and I love this notion of the common good, which we miss.

[00:28:37] We’re very individualistic. We get centered on our needs and me and my tribe, my clan, and not on the common good. And so working together for the common good becomes crucial. So in my class, I’ve got two sessions. This, uh, spring, it’s ethics. McCourt School of Public Policy. These are public policy students are going to be policy leaders in various spaces.

[00:29:07] And I want to talk about the common good way, which is together we need to fix the potholes in our streets. We need to do things together for the common good. And we’ll see how that can happen now going forward. Struggle. I was on calls yesterday with people in Ohio and I was really encouraged by what they’re doing in Ohio to protect and preserve democracy.

[00:29:36] And, you know, it might not be at a national level for a while, but it could be in a lot of states and cities around the country where people are going to be acting together for the common, for protecting democracy, for defending. The poor and vulnerable and for standing open the truth. So to me, it’s going to be very practical and local and not just a, a march in Washington.

[00:30:03] Mark: And as you say that, I’m hearing in that a story of hope, and I’ve quoted you more times than I care to count. Your uh, statement that’s on God knows how many coffee cups hope is believing in spite of the evidence and then watching the evidence change. Yeah. And that has been a guideline for me, and I think for so many others.

[00:30:26] And as you look at the landscape and at your faith, where do you see hope? Where is your hope?

[00:30:36] Jim: You know, I was really surprised and blessed. This new chair I have at Georgetown was named after my teacher, mentor, tutor and friend Archbishop Desmond Tutu. And I’ll never forget when I was invited in South Africa by our tutu and many of the faith leaders there.

[00:30:58] Never forget the first day I arrived and I went to meet him at St. George’s because he, Cape Town where he presided and was. Dramatic. I arrived and there was soldiers all around, hundreds surrounding the place. South African soldiers and police had got inside and he was a beginning to preach and they broke in, the South African security wings broke in the front door at St. George’s. And they lined the walls with tape recorders and notepads in hand, as if to say, go ahead, be prophetic, be bold. You just came out of jail. We’ll put you right back in. And I was sitting there my first day, many days since, but my first day in South Africa, St. George surrounded inside the cathedral and outside by this military and police.

[00:31:51] And I watched this little man in long robes go to the pulpit, just stop and bow his head, and pause in prayer. We all wonder what’s he going to do? What’s he going to say? And I felt they were saying, the police, “We’re in control. We own this country. We own this cathedral. We own you. We own your God. We’re in control.”

[00:32:17] And he looked up, and I’ll never forget this the rest of my life, he looked at them and he said, “You are powerful. You are very powerful, but you are not gods.”

[00:32:34] Being surrounded. He said, “So we invite you today to come and join the winning side!”

[00:32:43] And we, and the young people danced up, jumped up, and danced outside and we followed him and these police and soldiers, you know, weren’t sure what to do with these dancing worshipers who weren’t afraid. And 10 years later, I’m at the inauguration of Nelson Mandela. Guess who’s master of ceremonies? Bishop Desmond Tutu.

[00:33:04] And I said, Bishop, do you remember that day in St. George’s and what you said, what we did? And he smiled? He remembered. I said, “Today, they’ve all joined the winning side.” Well, anybody on that day had always been against apartheid, you know. And he taught me this sort of sequence of change. It’s faith that leads to hope, which creates action.

[00:33:28] It causes change, faith, hope, action, change. That’s the trajectory that I learned in South Africa and I’ve seen around the world. He taught me a difference between hope and optimism. Optimism, he said, is a feeling. It’s a mood. It’s a personality type, you know, cup half empty, a cup half full, and he said, hope is a decision choice you make because of this thing we call faith. Slogan on the coffee cup comes from the, you know, faith is the substance of things. Hope, the evidence of things not seen Hebrew says, and I love that phrase, hope is believing in spite of the evidence and then watching the evidence change.

[00:34:11] So no matter how bad things look, we don’t have to be optimistic every day.

[00:34:17] Mark: Yeah,

[00:34:18] Jim: we won’t be in this new era. We won’t be. But how could Desmond Tutu, the pastor, taking care of all the suffering people? He wasn’t optimistic every day either, but he made a choice. A choice to act and live in hope despite the consequences. So we’re going to have to maybe go deeper than optimism into the sense of hope.

[00:34:42] Mark: Yeah. His daughter was a member of the congregation I served in Massachusetts. And I remember going to her house, he was there. He began every day with the Eucharist. Every day with the Eucharist. And so he started from that foundational place, and a day would not go by without him honoring that and receiving that gift.

[00:35:07] Speaking of gift, Jim, it’s been an enormous gift to have you together and just honoring your commitment, your wisdom. The passion that you have brought certainly to me and so many others over the years, so grateful for your voice. How can people continue to be connected with you, either online or elsewhere?

[00:35:32] Jim: Yeah. Thank you for those kind words. Grateful is a good word in a time like this. Gratitude, and the reason Bishop Tutu did the Eucharist every day like that, as you say, is because he knew he had to maintain that hope throughout his days. So our center is called Center on Faith and Justice at Georgetown.

[00:35:56] We’re easy to find. Just Center on Faith and Justice at Georgetown. I’ve got a Substack column called God’s Politics. Again, easy to find. And then I’ve got a podcast called The Soul of the Nation. Again, easy to find.

[00:36:15] There’s a center, we have a website, we have events. You can get on that list for free, and you’ll hear about all our events, our plans, what we’re doing, the center, and then substack, God’s politics and podcasts. Soul of the Nation, all those are very easy. They’re all free, and they’re available. I’d love to be in touch with your listeners and readers.

[00:36:38] Mark: Great. Thank you. And this podcast will go up on my blog and website markbeckwith.net, where I blog weekly and also promote some of the other things that I’ve been doing. Jim, what a gift to have you and look forward to ongoing work together. The work is so important and the faith undergirds all of it. So thank you.

[00:37:04] Jim: You are creating a conversation here. What we need is more conversations like this, so I’m blessed to be with you today, Bishop Mark.

[00:37:12] Mark: Thank you.

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