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Mark: Welcome to Reconciliation Roundtable. I’m Mark Beckwith, your host, retired bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Newark, author of Seeing the Unseen Beyond Prejudices, Paradigms, and Party Lines. And I gather with religious leaders to talk about their journey, how we can work together, what is our hope.

And as we enter a new time in our country with a new president, I am more and more inclined to have conversations with people who have strong advocacy and support for the President. And as President Trump unfolds his program and issues, directives and orders, I find myself being clearer about where I stand. That said, I have an even deeper desire to be in relationship and in conversation.

It’s not that I want to bring them to my side, or that I would be brought to their side, but at the very least, I think that we need to be able to see each other and to try and understand one another.

Today, it’s my honor to have with me the Reverend Rick Joyner, who is a prominent Christian leader, author, and public speaker. For many, many years, he’s been on the leading edge of the evangelical movement. He is the founder of Morningstar Ministries, established in 1985 with his wife Julie in Fort Mill, South Carolina, which is near Charlotte, North Carolina. It includes Heritage International Ministries, a 500-room hotel and a convention center, and Morningstar University.

He is the author of over 50 books, including Final Quest Trilogy, The Path and Army of the Dawn. He is a strong and consistent advocate for the President’s policies and, indeed, admires him greatly and finds him compelling and wishes that the rest of us would see it that way. Rick and I have different perspectives on Jesus, on scripture, and on theology. That said, each of us in our own way claim Jesus as the fundamental figure for our life and our desire is to follow him. I think it’s important for us to hear from one another and to draw more closely into the perspectives that we each bring.

Rick, it’s an honor to be with you and to have this time together.

Rick: Well, likewise.

Mark: You and I have talked before, and in an earlier conversation you mentioned that the Lord is the greatest unifier. How did the Lord become a unifier for you? In your own life?

Rick: I was a heathen, and he converted me. I was born again. I had a very supernatural conversion experience and since that time, over 55 years ago, I’ve never had a doubt about him. I’ve spent my life trying to get to know him and serve him.

You know, it says he upholds the universe with the word of his power. So I think he is the one that holds everything together that gets held together. I think he’s the reason. It says all things were created for him and through him, and in him all things hold together. I believe he is all of that and much more than we could even perceive today, but one day we will.

Mark: So, you mentioned you had this conversion experience. My guess is that was in your late teens, early twenties, something like that?

Rick: Well, it was right after I got out of the service. I’d only been home a few months and just had this very supernatural encounter, and I was more than excited about it. I thought I’d found the mother lode. You know, I’d always said if I ever got to know there’s a God and who he was or whatever, I’d spend my life trying to know him.

And it was like finding the greatest treasure you could find. No question about it. And I’ve had an incredibly exciting life. I can’t imagine it being any better. It’s been the great adventure; I think the true Christian life is the greatest adventure you can ever live.

Mark: So, the second part of the question is, how do you see the Lord being a unifier for the rest of us, the rest of the world?

Rick: Well, I believe that’s going to require his coming back to take over. But I think it’s something we should be committed to anyway. It will pay great dividends, and you know, when there were just two brothers on the whole earth, they couldn’t get along. People have a hard time getting along. So I think anything we can to help heal divisions and unify on whatever level we can unify – I think it pays great dividends, and it pleases the Lord. I know as a parent, one thing that used to really disturb me was when my children fought with each other. I just couldn’t handle it. I couldn’t stand it. I think he feels that way with us. So we do it for his sake, not just our sake.

Mark: Given that there’s a wide array of religious expression across the world, much of it non-Christian: Jewish, Muslims, Hindus; how does the Lord unify those traditions which have a different history, different expression, different way forward?

Rick: Well, I think he can unify anything or anyone. Nothing is impossible with him. I think he’s waiting and there are certain things that have to happen on the earth. But one thing I think is a hindrance to unity, a great hindrance, is that we try to unify around too much. He only had Israel, which was made up of 12 tribes, they were only required to unify around two things: who they worshiped and how they worshiped him. That’s it. They could have their own history, their own destinies, vision for the future, everything but around those two things. And I think Christians try to unite around too much. We want to get in unity around every doctrine, and I think that’s neither possible right now nor necessary.

And Amos, I think he said, “How can two walk together unless they be agreed?” So we’ve kind of interpreted that as “We’ve got to agree about every little thing if we’re going to walk together,” but the way I believe it was intended is “If you can find any place where you can walk together, where you can unify, walk together there and don’t worry about the rest.” Later, you develop a relationship and trust, you know, those things will happen if they need to.

Mark: Sure, thank you. You’ve written about a dream that you had in 2018 and cited the Declaration of Independence in its call for liberty and justice for all. You mentioned that the civil War, which ended slavery and which you said needed to happen, but it didn’t bring liberty and justice for all. How do you see us bringing liberty and justice for all?

Rick: As a nation, we’ve been given the most brilliant founding documents, I believe, that have ever been written in history. Just a little bit with which we’ve complied with them has brought unbelievable blessing and prosperity. But it says we were going to create a place where there would be liberty and justice for all, and all men would be treated equally, and that didn’t happen.

It didn’t happen after the Revolutionary War, so that demanded a civil war, and it didn’t happen after the Civil War. I mean, progress was made, certainly doing away with slavery was a huge step, but how could we have slavery in the beginning with our founding documents saying that there would be liberty and justice for all? We were just big hypocrites, but we’ve made progress. And then the civil rights movement was required, and we made more progress. I believe we’re still making progress, but still not there. We can’t give up on that.

Mark: How do we keep moving it forward, from your perspective?

Rick: Being just with everyone, being fair, treating everyone fairly. If we start that on an individual level, it will soon have impact. Righteousness and justice are the foundation of the Lord’s throne. Righteousness is doing what is right in the sight of the Lord, and justice is everybody being treated fairly and equally. And I think we’ve got to wrestle with that. We just don’t give up.

Mark: Yeah. I mentioned earlier that you are a strong supporter of President Trump. You’ve said, or written, that he brings “transcendent leadership” to America. How do you see that, the transcendent leadership?

Rick: Take a look at his first month in office. I think, the first term, he learned the ropes and he got misused by a lot of people. This term, he knew what he was doing. He came in with clarity, he was resolute. He’s going to get the job done. And I think he’s put together a remarkable team to do it with. I was able to spend about an hour with him in his office in New York. It was the day after he had won the Republican nomination in 2015, I guess it was.

But I knew right away… I’ve met some of the most successful, brilliant people in the world. I met a lot of world leaders, but in that one hour, I could tell this is the smartest man I’ve ever met. I could tell you some stories, but I was just stunned by how brilliant and insightful he was, and how hospitable he was. It was remarkable. I mean, he kept saying, “Hey, is your chair comfortable? I can get you another chair.” You know, stuff like that. I’m going, “I’m good, I’m good.”

Afterwards he asked me to spend about an hour with his son, Eric, which I did. And then I just took some time wandering around his office, talking to his people. I have never, I don’t think in my life, come close to being in somebody’s office that was as happy as that office. I mean, there was amazing joy and happiness. They all liked each other, and they loved him.

You know, I have a Christian ministry. I think we have a pretty good place to work, and people like it and love it. I hope it’s good, but it’s nowhere close to this. I was convicted by that. You know, I stayed in one of his hotels. You had the same atmosphere there, at his golf courses. It’s the same atmosphere, and you have never had that kind of service anywhere. I mean, I’ve stayed in top hotels all over the world. I’ve never stayed in one that had the kind of service and the kind of atmosphere that the Trump hotels have.

It’s truly remarkable and it reflects him. He treats people incredibly well. He can be so insulting when he is debating or whatever, and that’s kind of New York. You know how New Yorkers are. I tell people he is one of the kinder, gentler ones. Now, I love New Yorkers personally. He’s incredibly kind, and thoughtful. And he has never said this, he doesn’t like for anyone to say it about him, but he can’t pass a beggar on the street. He’s got to give them something. He just, his heart breaks for people. The people around him know that, but he doesn’t like to make anything of it. I really love the guy. He’s just a wonderful person.

Mark: And also, as you said, you love and fully support what he’s doing?

Rick: Pretty much, yeah. I can’t say everything, but pretty much I’m amazed. The DOGE thing, what Elon Musk is doing, that should have been done decades ago.

Mark: Well, it’s interesting because I have a very different take on all of that. I find that he and Elon Musk and some of their decisions and orders, to me, feel cruel and heartless and they’re dividing rather than uniting. And there’s this scapegoating and around trans people and woke people. I don’t want to get into the difference that you and I may have around that, but given that is a difference that we have – and that you and I each see Jesus as our guide and have given our lives to following him, and we see things rather differently, how do we proceed? You talked earlier about the unifier. How do we continue the conversation around this political and sometimes theological polarity?

Rick: Well, if you can walk together in the things you do agree in, like I said, that’s a first start.

You know, I once was asked to speak at the World Public Forum on Civilizations and Religions. Most people don’t even know about it, but it had all the top religious leaders in the world from many different religions, supposedly all the major ones. Even all the top imams and mullahs from all the Middle Eastern countries.

I think I was the only evangelical there, and no one there even knew what an evangelical Christian was. I was their whole definition of an evangelical. And I was one of 60 people they asked to take, I can’t remember if it was 10 or 20 minutes, to speak. I did, and most of the ones I was speaking to were from Islam and they were top leaders. Even the leaders of Hezbollah were there and some of the other terrorist organizations. And afterwards I bonded with them more than almost anybody else. I’d go sit down to eat and pretty soon I have 10 or 15 people wanting to sit with me. They were all Muslims, and I really enjoyed them. I mean, I love their passion. They wanted to know God so badly, and they wanted to please him so bad, they were willing to kill themselves for it, or whatever. But I think I helped to lead them a little bit more in a better understanding of Jesus and what he was doing. I didn’t compromise. I preached the gospel boldly in my message, but I did it in a way that they responded to.

Mark: Do you think that Muslims need to become Christians then?

Rick: Yes, absolutely I do.

Mark: And Hindus and Buddhists and Jews need to become Christian.

Rick: Yeah. If everybody would agree with me on everything, that would fix it all.

Mark: Well, and I don’t agree with that. I don’t know that we all need to be Christians. Jesus is certainly foundational for my life, but in the work I’ve done with Muslims and Jews, I appreciate their wisdom and they bring me closer to God. In my understanding of who God is, because they have a different perspective, and I don’t have a need for them to become Christian.

Do I hear you saying that ultimately that we all need to be unified around faith in Jesus?

Rick: I do absolutely believe that because, I mean, that’s one of the things he said. No one comes to the Father except through him. Yes, I do believe it is necessary and essential, but I’m thankful our God is so patient and tolerating.

But I think I saw something happen at that World Public Forum, we really did touch something in each other and had a good time, but what really messes us up, in my opinion, I think is institutionalizing truth or faith. I think anytime it gets institutionalized, it gets corrupted. It gets politicized.

Mark: Can you give me an example of the institutionalized faith?

Rick: I think the way we make denominations, and movements, and things like that. Once you do that to a truth, pretty soon you’re defending the denomination or your characterization of that truth more than the maybe the truth itself.

Jesus suffered outside the camp. It says in Hebrews, “Let us go to him, outside the camp…” He never became a part of the institution, and I don’t think he would’ve approved of what we’ve done with them. Now, that’s me too because the IRS considers what I have as a denomination. We have many churches and all, but we’re trying not to institutionalize the truth that we believe, and there are ways that we can do that.

But you know, I don’t like to bash institutions. That’s not the answer. We just have to do something different. I know the leaders of many denominations. I’ve been asked to spend two weeks with a pope one time, and some of my best friends were Catholic leaders and I was jealous they had such a close relationship to the Lord. But you know, that’s what we’re trying to work out in this world, and I think it’s going to take Jesus, his return, to really work out things.

Mark: Do you see that happening? Anytime within our lifetimes? We’re about the same age.

Rick: Personally, I do not. I think we are in what scripture calls the end of the age, you know, the last years or decades… but I still think we’re looking at decades.

Mark: So, when Jesus comes back, presumably he gives people the option to join him, to follow him?

Rick: Well, I’m not sure how it’s going to work. We have some ideas from the scriptures, right? You know, why did he put the tree of knowledge in the garden in the first place? You think “Well, he did that just to trip us up so there’d be a fall,” and all of this. But I don’t think so. I think there had to be a tree of knowledge in the garden for there to be true worship and true faith. Because if there weren’t something forbidden, they could never have proven their obedience to him. You can’t have true worship unless there’s the freedom not to worship. No pressure. That’s why I never try to force or pressure anybody into coming to the Lord. I don’t want to win them over because I out-debated them. I believe the Holy Spirit has to call them, and I just believe they should have that liberty until he calls them.

Mark: Are there people that you see that don’t warrant the embrace of God and Jesus? I mean, what we’re hearing, certainly from the President, is that trans people, we can’t recognize them. We need to deny them. Are they outside of what God and what Jesus tried to embrace?

Rick: No, I don’t think he would turn away anyone, and I don’t think we should. We welcome LGBTQ, and we’ve had trans people in our church and ministry for years, but I don’t agree with it. I think, with the trans and the LGBT, they tried to force themselves, what they are, on everybody else to the degree that they really created a backlash. But certainly, Galatians 6:1 says, “if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore them and do it in a spirit of gentleness considering yourselves lest you be tempted.” So, I feel like as long as someone is breathing, don’t give up on them.

Mark: Well, to that point, I mentioned when we talked earlier that I work with Braver Angels, which is a movement to depolarize America, not to bring red people to the blue side or blue people to the red side, but that we can see each other and, and I feel like you and I have been doing that.

We have points of disagreement, but we share the same faith, we share the same God, we share the same loyalty to the Risen Christ. I just think that’s important. Braver Angels is trying to do that, and I think that’s so necessary, because you said that earlier – how do we bring people together.

What gives you hope as you see us moving forward?

Rick: Well, my hope is not in people. I mean, like I said, when there were just two on the whole earth they couldn’t get along. So, I don’t put my hope in people or anything. I put my hope in the Lord. He can unify us. He could do it all since nothing is impossible with God and he has promised us, you know, in the biblical prophecies, he’s going to do it. He’s going to unite us all at the end. It’s going to restore the earth to the paradise it was intended to be. But I think because I don’t put my hope in people, I’m not afraid of being hurt by them or anything like that. I honestly think it helps me to relate to them and connect with them better.

You know, people do hurt each other. I hear people all the time that they quit going to church because they got hurt there. I say well, there are people there. You’re bound to get hurt. You know, that’s what people do to each other. That’s how we grow in love, when we’ve been hurt and we overlook it and forgive it and keep going. That’s how we grow.

Mark: On the other side, what is your biggest concern as we are living at this time in this place?

Rick: Well, I think our country needs another Great Awakening. If you’ve ever studied the first and second great awakenings, of course a lot of them were up there where you are. You’re in New Hampshire, aren’t you?

Mark: Right, right.

Rick: Yeah. That was the center place and the birthplace of it, and it so transformed our country. I believe it set the spiritual DNA of our country and… We’re different. The Christianity in America is different than I have found it anywhere else in the world. Now I’m not saying it’s better, it is just really different. I used to travel internationally, because our ministry is mostly international. I would always try to study the country I was going to, read current articles, just so I’d know who I’m speaking to. And in almost every magazine, I would find articles about, “Americans are like this,” and “American Christians are like this.” Every time, I would say “they don’t understand us at all.”

It’s hard to understand others. That word comes from “standing under” – seeing from someone else’s perspective. That’s a very hard thing to do. But here’s one thing that I think has to do with the unity: God’s unity is not a unity of conformity, but a unity of diversity. I think he likes all the uniqueness and the distinctions that we have. He made every snowflake different! He made every one of us different. So why is the Christian Church so boringly uniform? Where does this pressure to conform come from? That’s obviously not God’s perspective on things. I think he wants us to all be unique and different, and we need to tolerate that to mature.

Mark: I remember hearing years ago that there’s something like 5,000 different Christian traditions registered with the IRS. So, there’s incredible diversity. Maybe it’s 4,000, but it’s a lot of different –

Rick: I think it’s more than that

Mark: Yeah, different kinds of expressions. So there’s great diversity… and the conformity, I don’t see it. In my own denomination, there’s always tension. We were created in tension 500 years ago around “is our source of truth scripture or is the source of truth tradition?” The tension between Protestantism and Catholicism. And we said, “Oh, we’re both. Our source of truth is scripture and tradition.” We would add reason to that. So, you know, there’s not great conformity in the Episcopal Church, and I think there’s a lot of diversity within each denomination or each expression.

Rick: I agree. Well, I think that’s a healthy thing. If you can be unique and different and still get along. That shows a certain maturity. I think it’s a unity in diversity, not a unity of conformity.

Mark: Rick, thank you for this time together. You have braved the respiratory challenge that you’ve had and been fully engaged, and I really appreciate that. How can people follow you? Podcasts, blog posts, other ways of following you?

Rick: We have a website, of course, called morningstarministries.org. We have an app which is free to download, and there’s a lot of interchange on that app of people from all different backgrounds and all. Those would be the two best ways. We have TV channels and YouTube channels and all that. But yeah, they could check us out.

I’m probably best known for that book, The Final Quest. We’re working right now, Lord willing, to turn it into a movie. But yeah, just look up me or Morningstar.

Mark: Right

Rick: And don’t believe everything you read. I tend to be one that – I stir up more stuff, but that’s my job.

Mark: Okay. Well thank you for being with me!

I’m Mark Beckwith, the host of Reconciliation Round Table. I can be followed on my blog, markbeckwith.net. I’m also the author of Seeing the Unseen: Beyond Prejudices, Paradigms, and Party Lines.

Rick, as I close this time, may I just offer a prayer?

Rick: Sure!

Mark: Gracious God, we give thanks for our life together with each other and with you. Bless us in our respective ministries. Help us to see and hear you in all that we do with each other, and may our differences be clear and may our hope to bridge those differences deepen because you are the one who brings us together. And for that we give thanks. In your name we pray, amen.

Rick: Amen.

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